Forget about the Shafts - LOFT is The King

**TourIQ** · Jul 10, 2024, 01:19 AM

way to go veryold

**rgk5** · Jul 10, 2024, 05:23 AM

Originally posted by veryold View Post

FWIW, starting to drive the ball really well and had a wonderful and so satisfying trials/experimentations with my 12* + 49 grams R shaft driver over the last couple of weeks.
In short:
1) By far and almost hard to believe the best results were on "Higher" setting of 13.5* achieving about 220 yards total.
2) At 12* ("Stdandard") it was OK, lower trajectory, lost at least 10 yards.
3) At 10.5* ("Low") basically much worse than the other 2 settings = low trajectory and =< 200 yards.

Played Braeben yesterday with setting of 13.5* and drover the green on 17 from the Red Tees (cca 210 yards) as other tee boxes are "under reconstruction" and closed. Missed the Eagle put but easy Birdie. Maybe I should adopt Red Tees as my STANDARD, LOL.

Next trial will be today (Beryl allowing, LOL), with the same head, set at 13.5* but will put in the Stiff shaft, 65 grams, a classic old Aldila NV Green. Really looking forward to see the results.

Be aware that the NV Green is a low launch shaft.

**ARL67** · Jul 10, 2024, 07:58 AM

I use a 12* G430 paired with an old tip stiff 61x shaft, playing to 45”, and have a heavier weight in the back. It has really helped my driving this season.

**luv2kruz** · Jul 10, 2024, 08:40 AM

Delivered loft is the important factor, not the loft of the club. If you are steep on the downswing (angle of attack negative), then your delivered loft will be lower and hence a higher lofted club will help compensate. If your angle of attack is positive (i.e hitting up on the ball), then you can go with a lower lofted club and still hit optimal launch angles. Shafts can help launch the ball higher or lower, so they play a part in the delivered loft equation.

So what you are seeing is likely just a better delivered loft with the higher lofted club based on all the variables of your swing (i.e. swing speed, angle of attack, launch angles, etc). Loft may be king for you, but not necessarily for others.

**veryold** · Jul 10, 2024, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by luv2kruz View Post

Delivered loft is the important factor, not the loft of the club. If you are steep on the downswing (angle of attack negative), then your delivered loft will be lower and hence a higher lofted club will help compensate. If your angle of attack is positive (i.e hitting up on the ball), then you can go with a lower lofted club and still hit optimal launch angles. Shafts can help launch the ball higher or lower, so they play a part in the delivered loft equation.

So what you are seeing is likely just a better delivered loft with the higher lofted club based on all the variables of your swing (i.e. swing speed, angle of attack, launch angles, etc). Loft may be king for you, but not necessarily for others.

All noted and undestood

***BUT*** if one relies on a + AOA and lower loft to produce enough air time, yes one can get beautiful high, penetrating looking drives, but unless one is a very good driver of the ball, you'd be having difficuly breaking 90 at Braeben with that type of setup. Played with SOOOO MANY young strong 300 yards drivers at Braeben that had to go to the Proshop and buy some balls after 9 holes. Just my 2c.

For me, I feel (no idea if true) that i have 0* AOA and rely on the "built-in" loft to get the "HEIGHT" and "SPIN" for optimal drives, which include DISTANCE **AND** ACCURACY ???

...and FWIW, i frequently finish Braeben with the same ball that i start with (which is not that hard when your drives are =< 220 yards, LOL) AAMOF, someone asked me there one day if I "play with the same ball all year round"

...and boy, maybe i'll take tour invitation 1 day for an early round at Lakeview, would love to join you, but waking up at 4:30 AM, looks like "Mission Impossible"

**luv2kruz** · Jul 10, 2024, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by veryold View Post

All noted and undestood

***BUT*** if one relies on a + AOA and lower loft to produce enough air time, yes one can get beautiful high, penetrating looking drives, but unless one is a very good driver of the ball, you'd be having difficuly breaking 90 at Braeben with that type of setup. Played with SOOOO MANY young strong 300 yards drivers at Braeben that had to go to the Proshop and buy some balls after 9 holes. Just my 2c.

For me, I feel (no idea if true) that i have 0* AOA and rely on the "built-in" loft to get the "HEIGHT" and "SPIN" for optimal drives, which include DISTANCE **AND** ACCURACY ???

...and FWIW, i frequently finish Braeben with the same ball that i start with (which is not that hard when your drives are =< 220 yards, LOL) AAMOF, someone asked me there one day if I "play with the same ball all year round"

...and boy, maybe i'll take tour invitation 1 day for an early round at Lakeview, would love to join you, but waking up at 4:30 AM, looks like "Mission Impossible"

You're mixing concepts. Individual golfer performances at Braeben and variables in club design/performance are not related. You can't look at how other people play and conclude their equipment setup is right or wrong, hence proving/disproving any theories on equipment setup. High skill can overcome poorly fit clubs and poor skill can negate well fit clubs. You can't draw any conclusions on equipment based someone's score or propensity to lose balls other than they are not very good or inaccurate.

**veryold** · Jul 10, 2024, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by luv2kruz View Post

You're mixing concepts. Individual golfer performances at Braeben and variables in club design/performance are not related. You can't look at how other people play and conclude their equipment setup is right or wrong, hence proving/disproving any theories on equipment setup. High skill can overcome poorly fit clubs and poor skill can negate well fit clubs. You can't draw any conclusions on equipment based someone's score or propensity to lose balls other than they are not very good or inaccurate.

Hi, not quite understanding your poin(s) here, and it's most probably me and not you, OK

So not to prolong this debate much longer, I will finish with the following: I DID NOT just "look" at their drives, ***BUT*** had wonderful and DETAILED conversations with many of great, long hitters at Braeben, who just couldn't score well there. We discussed their SIM DATA, watched their Drives, examined their Drivers and few even asked me to hit their "Misbehaving" Drivers, LOL, ***AND*** as well, they hit my 13.5* Driver, yes very high but middle of the fairway every time

So I stand firmly behind my conclusion that a +AOA with a lower natural loft can result in a beautiful "looking" drives, which unfortunately result in teeing the ball again, and hitting the 3rd shot of the tee

And, BTW, a number of Tour Players have (are switching to) Neutral, even "-" AOA.

Best and cheers

**veryold** · Jul 10, 2024, 12:42 PM

...sorry, posted here in error

**luv2kruz** · Jul 10, 2024, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by veryold View Post

Hi, not quite understanding your poin(s) here, and it's most probably me and not you, OK

So not to prolong this debate much longer, I will finish with the following: I DID NOT just "look" at their drives, ***BUT*** had wonderful and DETAILED conversations with many of great, long hitters at Braeben, who just couldn't score well there. We discussed their SIM DATA, watched their Drives, examined their Drivers and few even asked me to hit their "Misbehaving" Drivers, LOL, ***AND*** as well, they hit my 13.5* Driver, yes very high but middle of the fairway every time

So I stand firmly behind my conclusion that a +AOA with a lower natural loft can result in a beautiful "looking" drives, which unfortunately result in teeing the ball again, and hitting the 3rd shot of the tee

And, BTW, a number of Tour Players have (are switching to) Neutral, even "-" AOA.

Best and cheers

Serge, love your enthusiasm for this stuff, so I'm not trying to bust your chops on this. Just maybe helping clarify what you are seeing with your experimentation.

Your conclusion about higher loft straigtening out drives is correct, but this comes at the sacrifice of distance. So this whole discussion is the classic distance vs accuracy tradeoff discussion. For the typical amateur, it is obvious that is it much more difficult to be accurate at higher swing speeds than those that swing slower. The margin for error is tighter. That's why a lot of guys hit their 3 wood exlusively off the tee, since their swing flaws are more pronounced with driver. The additional loft of the fairway imparts less side spin and therefore typically results is straighter shots, albeit at the sacrifice of distance, and this helps some people score better, but not everyone. Those with much more consistent swings don't have that problem. For example, I know hitting your 13.5 degree driver would hurt me as I have no issues hitting it long and keeping it in play at Braeben and this is a strength that allows me to score very well there.

So again, I don't disagree with you that addtional loft will straigten out drives for those with inconsistent swings, allowing them to potentially score better (but not always). For you specifically, your addtional loft is helping you get into the optimal launch window for you, which is increasing distance and accuracy for you. But that tradeoff is specific to you and your game. Mine would be very different and that's why the whole fitting concept with various shafts, heads, lofts, etc has taken off. Everyone's 'optimal' is different.

And just out of curiosity, which Tour players are moving towards a neurtral/negative AOA with driver?

**veryold** · Jul 10, 2024, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by luv2kruz View Post

Serge, love your enthusiasm for this stuff, so I'm not trying to bust your chops on this. Just maybe helping clarify what you are seeing with your experimentation.

Your conclusion about higher loft straigtening out drives is correct, but this comes at the sacrifice of distance. So this whole discussion is the classic distance vs accuracy tradeoff discussion. For the typical amateur, it is obvious that is it much more difficult to be accurate at higher swing speeds than those that swing slower. The margin for error is tighter. That's why a lot of guys hit their 3 wood exlusively off the tee, since their swing flaws are more pronounced with driver. The additional loft of the fairway imparts less side spin and therefore typically results is straighter shots, albeit at the sacrifice of distance, and this helps some people score better, but not everyone. Those with much more consistent swings don't have that problem. For example, I know hitting your 13.5 degree driver would hurt me as I have no issues hitting it long and keeping it in play at Braeben and this is a strength that allows me to score very well there.

So again, I don't disagree with you that addtional loft will straigten out drives for those with inconsistent swings, allowing them to potentially score better (but not always). For you specifically, your addtional loft is helping you get into the optimal launch window for you, which is increasing distance and accuracy for you. But that tradeoff is specific to you and your game. Mine would be very different and that's why the whole fitting concept with various shafts, heads, lofts, etc has taken off. Everyone's 'optimal' is different.

And just out of curiosity, which Tour players are moving towards a neurtral/negative AOA with driver?

1) Much appreciated

2) Totally agree with all your other points here. And as a side and surprising development last evening in trying my newly acquired Ping K15 Driver, with S shaft and 9.5* I am actually starting to "challenge" a bit my "higher loft" adavantage theory. As I posted in the other thread, was hitting this driver so well, finding the fairways, with a slight fade, LONG for me (220 easy) except that the trajectory was a bit low, which on a dry day rolls long, but would be a big disavantage on a day like today

3) Oh, read it on few occasions, will try to find it ...

Forget about the Shafts - LOFT is The King